Let’s Have a Real Conversation About the RAPTURE

Good Morning to all! I am still not saying whether I am Pre, Mid or Post Tribulation. I have many statements and many questions and many hateful responses. If you come here and say things that are hateful to others, not me (as I will try to respond), but others that post comments I will delete your comment. 

One of the comments a dear Sister in Christ made has shown me that I want to add this line to this post. Attitude matters as much as sound teaching. 

Pre-Tribulation View

All the preachers that I listen to are Pre-tribulation. So let’s start with them. They say at the start of Revelation 4 you do not hear about the church again until like Revelation 19. They also use Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” If it were to be Mid-tribulation then they could count 1260 days and know exactly when the rapture would occur. Then they go to           Then they go to 1 Thessalonians 5:9 “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,” Saying the whole tribulation time is God’s wrath. And some us 1 Thessalonians 5:4 “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” So this is the basic premise of Pre-tribulation.

I could have missed some points so forgive me, I am only trying to list the basics for each view that others could possible come and have a real discussion!

Mid-Tribulation View

Now this may actually cover Mid-tribulation and Pre-wrath Views as I am unable to distinguish the difference. Maybe you can help me. Some Mid-Tribulation people say that the Israelites went through the first three plagues therefore we will go through the first three and half years of the tribulation. These I believe are also the belief of 1 Corinthians 5:52 “in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” And 1 Thessalonians 4:16 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.” Which they say is the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation. Revelation 11:14-15 “14The second woe has passed. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly. 15Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world is now the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.” They also refer to the passage in Daniel 12:11-12     11 ” And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.” 

How do we answer each of these things to come let us reason together. Isaiah 1:18-20. Come now, let us reason together — The word נוכחהis properly understood of two contending parties arguing a case; or, as Bishop Lowth translates it, pleading together; but here it seems to import also the effect, or issue of such a debate, namely, the accommodating their differences. Though your sins be as scarlet — Red and bloody as theirs were, mentioned Isaiah 1:15; great and heinous; they shall be white as snow — God, upon your repentance and reformation, will pardon all that is past, and look upon you with the same grace and favour as if you had never offended, your sins being expiated by the blood of the Messiah, typified by your legal sacrifices.

Post-Tribulation View

For the final view of my commentary. I have the least information about this view because I have only heard one Preacher that believes this. I will do my best. Again forgive me if I miss some points or do not quote properly. One strength of Post-tribulation is that Jesus, in His extended discourse on the end times, says He will return after a “great tribulation” Matthew 24:21, 29 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:” Also, the book of Revelation, with all its various prophecies, mentions only one coming of the Lord—and that occurs after the Tribulation Revelation 19-20. Passages such as Revelation 13:7 “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”  and 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.” also lend support to Post-tribulation in that there will obviously be saints in the Tribulation. Also, the resurrection of the dead in Revelation 20:5 “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.” is called “the first resurrection.” Post-tribulation assert that, since this “first” resurrection takes place after the Tribulation, the resurrection associated with the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” cannot occur until then.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 which is also used in all three views only in different ways.

So are we able to come together without being hateful, show our view and look openly at the other views and let us reason together. Not so that you will change your mind but that we can openly answer any other person’s questions. I see a lot of people having questions, but no one giving answers. Just a my way or the highway kind of answer. This is my view but your scripture doesn’t matter type thing. This is causing a rift. Will you be the one to open a dialog with this is why that scripture doesn’t match my theology?   Nicely, Godly, and honestly! I look forward to any open conversation that this may bring forth. Remember to state your view nicely. Read the others comment and no one is allowed to be hateful. Hateful does not mean not defending your view. You are allowed to passionately defend you view. 

Shalom and God Bless.

282 thoughts on “Let’s Have a Real Conversation About the RAPTURE”

  1. I personally do not believe in this entire system of beliefs regarding end time events. I believe that Jesus is coming again, that there is an antichrist [which I believe is a “power” or system and not one man], that there will be a period of ‘tribulation’ [which I believe is better referred to as the “time of trouble”, I just do not believe it is really given a specificed length], that as a church we will be facing trials and dangerous times before the coming of Christ including mass deception based on apparently miraculous phenomenon perpetrated by the devil, and that the church will ride out the last days right up until the second coming without being extracted until the last minute. If you’re genuinely open to other viewpoints on these matters, than I’d invite you [anybody reading this or the writer of this post] to pay a visit to my own blog and read my post titled “A thief in the night.” This entire concept of the “two-phase” rapture is not something I put a lot of stock in, although I do hold to a strong believe in the literal, visible, powerful, and loud coming of Christ.

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    1. Thank you for sharing. Although I disagree you. I thank you for your post. I am not very often on so I am sorry for the time it took me to respond to you. I will try to go to your blog and read what you have under a thief in the night. There may be many that believe the way you do. This is new to me. God Bless you.

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    1. Actually, Maria, I think one or more of us should contact Greg Laurie’s Ministry as well as pray, and ask plain and simple. Just as we would each other. We should do it in a loving manner and ask that the Holy Spirit Guide our words. No matter what the answer is do not respond in any manner that may be construed as unkind. What ever is found out needs to go directly to the Lord. Ask the Lord to either change his heart or to put this to a rest. We have to correct each other as kindly and lovingly as we can, but correction is a must. What are we to do if we stand before God and He says why didn’t you say something to this person? I placed this before you and you did nothing. But what I read in last post it seems his faith is where it needs to be so I am unsure. I am unfamiliar with Billy Graham, but I like Franklin.

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  2. I moved away from discernment ministries and Greg Laurie’s Harvest website to begin to find answers.

    Go to Fox & Friends for his view on Billy Graham,

    “- Greg Laurie
    Laurie said Graham, who he has been friends with since the early 1990s, was a “very humble man” who enjoyed meeting and talking with new people. Graham was faithful in his message, Laurie said, which was simply: We’re all sinners, but God loves us and sent his son to die for us.

    “I don’t think anyone will ever take Billy’s place. But we can all, in our own way, follow his example and proclaim the same Gospel as he did,” Laurie said.

    Source:

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/02/billy-graham-remembered-as-faithful-most-important-evangelist-by-religious-leaders.html

    And go to Pastor Laurie’s Facebook page photos for several photos of Graham.

    Many understand and have seen that Billy Graham undermined the Church of Jesus Christ and harmed Roman Catholic converts, referring them back to Catholic parishes after they’d responded to the Gospel of grace.

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    1. You may not find anything. But his appearance at Lifest with the Roman Catholic bishop and his photo and comment to Gibson sends the wrong message, that Roman Catholicism is OK for Christians. Years ago, for a reason I cannot remember now, I stopped listening to Laurie. I think Lighthouse Trails has articles on him. I want to say it was because of emergent church beliefs? All the best on your research!

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      1. Yes, but if Pray for the Lord to lead you, you will find the truth and the truth shall set you free. It could be also that He is just trying to keep the dialog open with Catholics that want to convert that aren’t truly saved.

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  3. Crissy actually left this for Maria, but this is the heart of what this post is all about. I wanted to make sure that this was heard and read and understood so hopefully they won’t mind that I am doing a copy and paste so all can read this. Crissy has stated so nicely. Here it is
    Grace and Peace to all of you .
    Thank you Maria for your wise words. Is good to share thoughts . As I see it this is not about changing anyone’s mind. Just sharing our thoughts as we understand Scripture. The thing to remember is that one day, hopefully soon, we shall all be with the Lord
    We can put forth what we learned and why we see things the way we do and pray the Lord to guide each and everyone of us. If we don’t agree that’s fine. I do not agree with many things preached in the church I currently attend. If we only love those that agree with our point of view (referring to our spiritual family of born again believers). we failed to love as Jesus commanded.
    May this be read and understood by all who visit this site or any other site they may go to. God Bless you, Crissy, for your beautiful words that read my heart!!!

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      1. Sherry, I hope I have not offended you. I am not dogmatic on my rapture beliefs. I have watched all the preachers on the pre-trib. Even with the beliefs I carry if a teacher that I like does a program on the rapture if possible I am going to tune in and follow all the scripture that they give. I will one of these days get Jerry’s book and search what he says, because for the most part Irvin Baxter is the teacher I have heard on post-trib. I want to learn I want to be sure that My Lord tells me ‘well done thou good and faithful servant.’ So if you have a statement you would like to make I will listen, if you have a question for me I will try to answer. God Bless you, Sister, and I hope I have in no way offended you. If I did please forgive me as that was not my intention. ❤

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  4. Psalm 46:1-11 NASB — For the choir director. A Psalm of the sons of Korah, set to Alamoth. A Song. God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, though the earth should change And though the mountains slip into the heart of the sea; Though its waters roar and foam, Though the mountains quake at its swelling pride. Selah. There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God, The holy dwelling places of the Most High. God is in the midst of her, she will not be moved; God will help her when morning dawns. The nations made an uproar, the kingdoms tottered; He raised His voice, the earth melted. The LORD of hosts is with us; The God of Jacob is our stronghold. Selah. Come, behold the works of the LORD, Who has wrought desolations in the earth. He makes wars to cease to the end of the earth; He breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two; He burns the chariots with fire. “Cease striving and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.” The LORD of hosts is with us; The God of Jacob is our stronghold. Selah.

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    1. There’s no fight. Just being the watchman we are called to be. If Greg Laurie sides with God’s enemies, like Mel Gibson (there’s a Twitter photo of the two together) and TBN then we should not promote him so that he will repent of it. And, believe me, I’ve been warned about many of my favorites, too, like John MacArthur, who says a person can be forgiven if he takes the Mark of the Beast and repents of it. John Piper, too, with his new fangled gospel and ecumenism… Many of the teachers I admired turned out to be ecumenists who signed the ECT. You are not being attacked. Just warned because I care and love you as a brother. Besides, God says if we know and do not warn then we will be held accountable for saying nothing.

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  5. Brothers and sisters, would youb e interested in labeling comments that are about personal feelings or incidents so that we don’t back up over eachother’s toes? Comments about our views don’t need to be labeled of course. Comments where we tell something about a friend, like Christian did in giving his friend’s insights into Job, might need a heads-up. We could do something like:

    * personal stuff *

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      1. No one said he’s not a Christian but he is unequally yoked together with TBN and Roman Catholicism. He needs our prayer to have his eyes opened to the wolves in sheep’s clothing. As a pastor he will inadvertantly lead many astray!

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      2. Yes, Maria, let me add what came to my mind: Bibleguy317, you cannot fathom anything could be wrong with your brothers and sisters and so, when they are in error, its hard for you to accept. That’s a good thing, in a way. You are not one to go searching for what is wrong about any of your fellow brethren. But, though this is not said of Nathaniel, when its brought to your attention you tend to refuse to believe it which makes you less discerning. God would have us to be discerning and to do what He says in His Word about an erring brother. Sometimes, love hurts at the moment but if the erring brother repents then all are blessed for it.

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      3. Yes it’s not like I get up in the morning and say what can I find wrong about Greg Laurie or any other Pastor if I hear something like that I try and find it on their own website. Is there any one of us who has not been discerning at times?

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      4. I don’t think any of want to do that. Not true Christians anyway, but God will use you in mighty ways. When I say I am going to do some research, first I ask for God to lead me and I will actually wait a few days before I start looking for things. Not because it will take God that long to put it together for me, but because I want the Holy Spirit to lead me in what I use for search terms and I am a little slow at finding the right words then I am continually praying as I search for things. Not saying you don’t also do all this, I am just saying that because I am so young in the faith is why I take the extra caution.

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    1. Maria, This is my take on it all. Let’s suppose you are right in your views, and we are not. Suppose the peace agreement is signed today, no Rapture. The war of Ezekiel starts next week, no Rapture. We are then able to come back to this page or your page and read the other comments and contact one another to reason together. If Pre-trib is right then hey no worries cause we won’t need the pages only the ones left behind will and it’s there for them too. If your faith is waivered because of when the Rapture happens then you didn’t have faith in the One that it happens because of. The rapture is I believe mistakenly part of peoples Theology. The rapture is a benefit of our being saved, not the reason. I am not discouraged and I am also not carried off by every wind of Doctrine. I like to hear others views why they believe what they believe as long as they have faith that Jesus born of a virgin lived on this earth, in the human body and was fully God fully man, died on the cross, for our sins and rose again three days later. He is alive and sitting on the right hand of God the Father. I believe God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit are Three in One. That’s my faith. I do not have to understand it, I do not have to see it, I only know that it is true and when I reach heaven all things will be made known to my tiny little brain. That’s my theology. I am not going out to converse whether or not Buda, Mohammad or anyone else died that I could be saved. That’s carried by every wind of Doctrine. Never be afraid, God does not give us a Spirit of fear. What may be confusing to others is if the rapture doesn’t take place when they think it will then they will need answers. I believe you have a very meek heart. I believe that you were so hurt that you do not want to hurt anyone else. I live life as if the Rapture was to happen today, but I am prepared to live all the way to the end of the seven years. My faith can not be shaken because of the one who lives within me. God Bless you dear sister and I will keep you in my prayers.

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  6. I wanted to share something else with all of you that I just read in my e-mail. I ride the Bible Bus as often as I can on TTB with J Vernon McGee, who timeless messages continue to us and those around the world. I joined their World Prayer team because I knew there were many countries I didn’t know or couldn’t remember from my school years. So how blessed I am to be a part of that to join others to pray for brothers and sisters, but to also pray for unbelievers. This letter really touched me about the subject we’ve been talking about, I am not saying any of you are on the wrong bus, but the reason for this is because may be the ones who are mean, hurtful, hate filled, are and maybe just maybe we need to pray a little more for them. I think this will touch each of your hearts.
    We’re traveling on our knees to our prayer destinations, but Mr. Sólyom in Hungary wrote us about another trip that he took.
    “I want to express my abundant joy about our joint efforts in the Lord. Let me tell you about an experience I had. I got on the bus, took my seat, and in the meantime I was praying, when all of a sudden I looked out of the window and saw that the bus was not going in the right direction. I felt myself panic. I looked at the other passengers, they were calm and quiet. Did I make a mistake? (At my age sometimes that happens). When I looked out again and I recognized the route, I calmed down. Then it came to mind how good it is that the bus in which we are travelling towards eternity is in the hand of Christ. I remembered this story a little bit later while listening to your evening program, where a brother preached about trains which start off in different directions but only one is right—the one which leads to the Kingdom of God. This was just an example of how God teaches me through my day-to-day experiences. It is so wonderful to listen to the preaching. I carry you in my prayers each day. May our Lord bless you all as we support each other!”
    Pray today for those in Hungary to “get on the right bus!”

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    1. We are all growing and learning at different, God-appointed, rates. We need to keep refining our beliefs and run them through Scripture upon Scripture. I believe what matters to our Beloved is that we love the truth, pray that we are not believing lies as truth and continue to pursue truth until we meet Him in the air.

      Christian, I feel you are making me out to be saying certain people aren’t saved because they believe different than me. That is my impression and it couldn’t be further from the truth.

      Why not ask us, in one of your comments, all of the questions you have.

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      1. Actually, I said, I believe everyone who has commented on this post thus far is saved. So I am sorry if anything I said sounded any different. This post isn’t about questions I personally have, this is about questions that I have seen others have, with the exception of the Daniel 12:11-12. The first day I wrote this I posted several questions to Bibleguy, I think he thought I was giving him a hard time and hurt him, which is the opposite of what this was about. Because of that I have refrained from asking too much even of what I first asked him. I am very secure in my belief of when, but because I want to remain objective, I do not post my beliefs. You are pre-trib so I try to pose things to you from other beliefs, Jerry and Maria are post-trib so I try to post things from the other views. I do not want to tell anyone they are wrong. This is just a conversation so that whatever the view if someone just doesn’t understand that “rapture Stuff” they can come here and search out the scriptures. They may not have a good preacher. Some preachers will not even talk about this. Some people may not know to listen to Jan Markel or that they can buy Jerry’s book. I believe you say the right things and I agree with you, “We need to keep refining our beliefs and run them through Scripture upon Scripture. I believe what matters to our Beloved is that we love the truth” I will only add one more thing to that is that our Beloved also cares about how we treat one another that also why this is not about judging, this is about how we can come together and know that we are all saved yet we differ on the rapture timing in love. Sherry in the time that we have written back and forth, I have a great respect for you. Everyone that has put forth an their views I have respect for. I have a great time reading all the comments. For me this has been an answer to prayer. God Bless you Sherry.

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      2. But, what are your beliefs, dear brother? Where are your questions? What are they? It is possible to be dogmatic on the pre-trib rapture yet learn from others like I have from those who have commented on this thread. What if I could learn from your rapture perspective?

        This has been a good thread. Rapture conversations always are though it can tend towards ugliness. I rarely join in them unless its on my blog. And I do get even more passionate about it there. I just can’t understand why no one can see the pre-trib in the Scriptures. But, then, some do read other books with other views and then that is that. How we view the book of Revelation can be the foundation for our beliefs, too. I know it is understandable why rapture views are all over the board.

        Have a blessed day, brother.

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      3. Ok, since I will not be on after today for quite a while I will now tell my beliefs. I am not so dogmatic as some would believe. I didn’t originally post my view because it would have swayed some people not to comment because my view differed from theirs which would have stopped the whole reason for the post.
        I am Mid-Trib. I believe the Israelites went through the first three plagues and then God separated them from the Egyptians. I believe Daniel’s 1290 is the desolation just past the mid-point and the 1335 is about the rapture point. No I don’t believe we will know the day or the hour because we are trying to mark it by the peace agreement signing and that could be the wrong way to understand. God told Abraham his children would be in captivity for 400 years which it was actually 430, so God’s timing is not our timing. I believe the two witnesses are going to be at the wall near the beginning of the Tribulation and will be killed at the 1260 days at which point the AC will kill them and then shortly after issue the mark. We are still here. I believe that after the mark and we don’t take it, it will be shortly after that the rapture occurs [I don’t mean days or even weeks I mean maybe within a year] I believe it will be the 7th trumpet of Revelation. When the last Trump sounds. I believe the Horses of Revelation 6 is an overview of what is to come explained in passages past that. I am still currently working on what is each horse to the best of my ability. I believe the wrath of God is the third woe. And we will not be here for that. After the Rapture is when the 144000 are marked with God’s mark and are protected from any harm that comes to the earth or the people of the earth.
        Here is my clause. I pray every single day of my life “Even so come Lord Jesus”. I want to go to be with Him and leave this horrible world. I pray for a Pre-Trib rapture, I expect a Mid-Trib rapture, but my heart is prepared for a Post-Trib rapture. My spouse and I have prayed that because it took so long for us to come to faith that if it be God’s will to leave us here during the Tribulation we would stay to serve Him. So I live my life as if the Lord will take me today, but will touch as many lives as I can until He says Come.
        God Bless you, sister.

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  7. Good Blessed Morning, I have enjoyed reading all the comments to this. I am very excited to be back. Thank you all for your thoughts on this and the fact that all that have different view points were able to come together and discuss with out being unkind to one another. I feel so very blessed to have been a part of this, even if in some small way.
    I got to speak to a brother in Christ on Friday. I have known this brother for many years. I had thought that he was Pre-Trib in all the years I had known him. We got into a very deep discussion on this very topic, he said it was like the book of Job. He said that God allowed Job to go through the Tribulation for a time with the loss of his children, animals, and wealth, and that Job’s wife was like the unbelievers will be and say see what all has happened, why don’t you just curse God and die. Then when God First begins to speak to Job that it is a foreshadow of the Rapture. Now, I must say I was floored. I had never considered the book of Job in that prospective. When God restores Job it is like the marriage supper. For me that was a new thing to consider.
    I still had the question of Daniel 12:11-12 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days …
    Who are the Blessed that wait and cometh to the 1335 days? Does anyone have ideas on this? This is clearly past the middle of the tribulation, and I do not believe it is the end of the Tribulation as some scholars say, so do any of you have another idea for me?

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    1. Job was a unique individual and not a type for anything. Sometimes we read more than we should in Scriptures. That’s why there’s so many false doctrines going around. Job is nothing more than an encouragement for believers and to show God’s sovereignty in our lives. As for the rapture, if it doesn’t line up nicely with the whole of the Bible, without forcing the Scripturess used, then let it be dropped from our beliefs. Every bit must line up comfortably and plainly. This is why spiritualizing Scriptures is not a good way to interpret the Bible.

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      1. First, this is a dear friend of mine, and if that is what he believes then I am ok with that. There are many things that Pre-Trib people use and I may ask a question of why they believe that, but this friend of my is godly man, and I just wanted his feelings. He doesn’t do much on the internet, so he doesn’t visit blogs or have much outside in the way of influence outside of books that he reads, so I didn’t feel that I need to correct him at all. Besides, isn’t that what all this is about reasoning together? I just wanted to share his beliefs with all of you, that’s all.

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      2. Did I question his godliness? You seem to make it out as if I did with your answer to me about how godly he is. This is not a comfortable place if you are going to put words in my mouth.

        Look, I shake my head in confusion at Maria’s beliefs but I consider her my most precious sister in the Lord! I have no question about her godliness -I would love to be as godly as she is! ❤

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      3. I didn’t say that you questioned his godliness. I wanted you to know the respect that I carry for this man. If he was on this blog and knew what everyone else was saying I wouldn’t have even commented. I just wanted all to hear his views. I apologize if I sounded harsh. Sometimes when we say things the words may sound harsher then the heart intended. I was defending my friend because he wasn’t here to defend himself. That’s all, Sherry, nothing at all against you.

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      1. Greg Laurie is an ecumenist, considers Roman Catholicism to be Christian, and is an apologist for the false gospel presenters, TBN. Plus, Calvary Chapel, a beloved past church of mine, has many emergent church beliefs. Be discerning! And pray for Greg to return to the ancient path of truth., that his eyes will be opened concerning the Roman Catholic Church, that he will seperate, and no longer promote, false brethren.

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      2. The Lord used Greg Laurie so that I could return to Him and be Born Again and unless he it comes from his site it’s not true. I go to a Calvary Chapel they preach the truth. If it comes from sites like Pulpit and Pen it’s slander. I don’t want to debate this back and forth so this will by my only reply. Maybe Greg doesn’t know or they are deceiving him doesn’t he not get the benefit of the doubt after all he is a brother in Christ.

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      3. Would you please quit saying my info comes from Pulpit and Pen! And do your own research before accusing me of slandering Greg Laurie! He’s on TBN. That is enough right there not to promote him. He comes in agreement with false professors. AND! I used to attend Calvary Chapel, and once followed Greg and bought his books. However, since Chuck Smith died, things have changed for the worst. Even his own brother said that!

        BTW, I came to Christ through Robert Schuller…that does not make him a true believer or anyone I would promote. Be discerning, Bibleguy317! Truth is our stewardship.

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      4. I never said it came from Pulpit and Pen what I mean is we as Christians should not use Pulpit and Pen and I did not say you slander Greg Laurie have you been on his website and looked at what he believes and the statement of faith his site has. I don’t like TBN either. Like I said my Church a Calvary Chapel preaches the Gospel and the truth. If you type in the search Catholic you will see comments of people that came out of the Catholic Church on Greg”s site. Greg believes in Salvation by Grace through Faith in Christ Alone.

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      5. We all need to be discerning, but praise the Lord that He can use even someone that may not be a true teacher. I am not saying Greg is not, I will do some research, but IF he’s not an Bibleguy came to faith because of what Greg said, it is BUT GOD!!!!

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      6. It doesn’t matter if Satan uses it against you or not, what matters is God is control. Satan will twist your words, your deeds and even how you came to faith. He tells God look at that Bibleguy, he says these thing but doesn’t believe it. He is our accuser, God says Satan you only try to guess this stuff, I know what Bibleguy knows and believes. I know that I used Greg Laurie’s words but I put that faith in Bibleguy’s heart. So don’t worry what Satan tries to use against us, know that God Knows our hearts through and through.

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      7. I will have to check on that. I haven’t heard him say that. I know since he has started promoting that other guy, can’t think of his name, I have stopped listening. I only hear Greg on the radio if I turn it on that early. So yes, I will pray for him. Thanks for the information, Sherry.

        Liked by 3 people

      8. I was really disappointed. I will be honest, I don’t know much about Andrew Womack, all I know on the few times I have heard Him I feel like my spirit is saying something is wrong here turn him off. So I don’t listen to him. I am still very young in the faith although not in years, so like you, Bibleguy, we are still learning. Ask God to grant you the wisdom to see when someone is being led astray that you may pray for them. That’s what I did and I was amazed that things I started seeing or just knowing that I didn’t know before. As you know there are a lot of people out there that want to hurt good preachers, but the Holy Spirit will not mislead you. Ask Him to help you find the true answer so that you know how to pray for Greg Laurie. Maybe God brought this out because He is going to use your prayers to set Greg straight.

        Liked by 2 people

      9. Yes I will say this I know the truth about Joel Osteen and what he teaches and I know Pastor Greg is not Joel Osteen. I know he talked to Mel Gibson and I think said Marco Rubio is a Christian when Marco Rubio is Catholic.

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      10. There was a preacher from years ago that I heard had a dream. In his dream he was taken to the gates of Hell. The angel that was escorting him, the preacher said who is in there. Are there Catholics in there and the angel said yes. The preacher said are there Baptist in there and the angel said yes. He said are there Methodist in there and the angel replied yes. Then he was whisked to the gates of heaven the preacher said who is in there? Are there Catholics in there, the angel said no. Are there Baptist in there, the angel again said no. Are there Methodist in there, again the angel replied no. The angel said only the ones that had faith in Jesus are in here.
        I thought that is what it’s all about. There will be Catholic people in heaven no matter what the Pope teaches because they have the same faith that we do. God does not separate us by religion He separates us by our heart. Let’s be careful how we label people. I hope this helps all to understand that God doesn’t label He trust His Spirit for truth.

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      11. I apologize, Bibleguy317, you are right, you did not accuse me of slandering Laurie. Let this be known, I already know better than to use Pulpit and Pen where you are concerned.

        God bless you. I know it is very hard to hear these things but that’s part of growing in Christ, being warned of these things that threaten God’s truth. Better are the wounds of friends than the kisses of the enemy. Even Paul received backlash from fellow believers that he stated: Have I now become your enemy because I have told you the truth?

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      12. Thank you I forgive you. God bless you too I just prefer going to the sites of Pastors like Greg Laurie and others to see what they say because sites like Pulpit and Pen can make stuff up I like original sources. No you are not my enemy you are my sister in Christ. Greg will stand and give an account for standing with Catholics at the Judgement Seat of Christ

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      13. Yes, But if this is true, Bibleguy, we as brothers and sisters need to be in deep prayer for him. Not because he has already strayed from the truth, but because we do not want him to, I think is Sherry’s point. Add Greg Laurie to your prayer list ask God to protect his heart and to block whatever may be not leading him correctly.

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      14. I agree I came to faith and or recommitted my life to Jesus in 2015 well before all these things came out if true I tried to look on his site I couldn’t find anything were he talks about the Catholic Church tI don’t think the only thing I found was people saying they came out of the Catholic Church if you look on Greg’s apple app on the iPhone or iPad there’s a tool section others faiths were it talks about Roman Catholicism.

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      15. Satan is not the only fallen angel, and we have to hate what God hates. Sin is our enemy, false prophets and false teachers are enemy. Flesh is our enemy to. We have to pray against all these things and ask the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us. May we only hear His voice.

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      16. Sherry, words read whether, by you, me, Bibleguy, or anyone else sometimes are not taken the way they are spoken in our heart. That is part of the reason I wanted to start this post. I have not had to remove a single comment from this post because I know the way they were intended even the hearer didn’t understand them the first time. I am so thankful that we are able to come back and say that wasn’t what I meant or that wasn’t what I really said. Thank you for clarifying so many things that could have misunderstood and others would have left with a hurtful heart when that wasn’t the way it was intended. You truly do have a heart for the Lord and I thank you for being a part of this conversation!!!!

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    2. Christian, I tend to believe that the extra 45 days are the days after tribulation when the Sun moon and stars cease to shine in Matt 24 and Joel ch 3 I believe before the Lord appears on the day of the Lord. Paul also alluded to this when he speaks of the day of the lord coming as a thief in the night. For this to occur it requires darkness over the earth.

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    3. Christian, I guess I goofed when I originally read and joined this conversation, but I have not been getting notifications unless they are in response to what I have written here. And I can’t get to your original site? Can you give me a link to this original article so I can be added to be notified of any comments made by anybody. That way I can keep up much easier. Thanks.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Jerry, I would love to, except I don’t get any notifications except from you. It’s like everyone except you from where I read your article and commented got taken off. I haven’t been able to read what Sherry or anyone writes unless they comment directly to something I posted on their website. Unfortunately I don’t know how to post a link. Matter of Fact I don’t even know how to get to websites unless I am able to find and article on the Reader page and click on the square that lets you visit. I am sorry but computers these days are not my thing. I was pretty good with windows 97/98 but went years without one and now not so much. I don’t think these comments are coming from my site cause they are not in conversations. Maria is super good. She can post links and do all kind of things. God bless you, Brother!

        Liked by 1 person

      2. so let’s try this to see if it works. my site is soappsite.wordpress.com
        Does that send you a link? I found a comment by Sherry, but not anyone else but you. I don’t know. I have enjoyed reading all your post, but I can’t find Crissy’s questions. Thankfully you post the question in your answer so I was able to follow along. I am so thankful it has kept me linked to your answers. Very fascinating. I love being challenged in what I believe. It makes me dig so much deeper. Thanks, Brother, you truly are a blessing to me.

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      3. You’re to kind Christian, you made this one post almost occupy this little group for an extended period of time. That’s a real blessing, because it actually promoted a unity of sorts in our study and learning. But we all need to be being a blessing for to do so is our greatest accomplishment for the Lord. Thanks brother. I think I may have found what I need on word press to get the comments to this post. We shall see. Thanks again. But I don’t understand why you are not getting them on your own post? There are about 260 comments there.

        Liked by 1 person

      4. I have the old ones but not all the new ones that keep coming in. I don’t know. I still get yours which is really cool. I got one that Crissy replied to. I don’t know.
        I would like to say that it was me who did this post, but alas, not I. I try to listen to the Spirit when he speaks. I try only to do what brings glory to the Lord. Perhaps, His Spirit was grieved to see His children fighting so. I truly hope that is does bring a unity of sorts. Doesn’t that seem to glorify Him? To know that fighting children can once again be able to reason together. That is all I want for the saved, and to witness to the unsaved. Christians seem to have gotten so hateful to one another that if I were unsaved not sure I would want to be saved after reading some of the things that others say. How this must grieve our Lord! He died so that we may fight against each other? No, we are one body, can the foot be any greater than the hand? Yet we seem to want our beliefs to be just that. What if I believe wrongly about something, should I want to hear your view that I may study the scriptures to see if I am right or maybe you are right and I need correction. If I am right maybe you need correction. We are to reason together. The Berean Church studied to be sure what they were told was truth. How have we gotten so far from that. Most Christians can’t even defend the hope that is in them, much less what they believe. We buy study bibles and just trust what they tell us. Not all theologians are fully correct in their translation. I have a study bible that I enjoy very much, I disagree on some points but I study out to see why I differ with and maybe I am wrong. I will not own any translation that John 3:16 Say For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son.

        For me it has to say only Begotten Son. Adam as recorded in Luke was the son of God. We are sons of God, yet none of us were able to die on the cross for the sins of the world. I hope this conversation continues and I pray that the unity grows, I pray that this will reach many others that are not saved that they may see that we have love for one another that differ on things that are not salvation issues and that we love them. That we never, but never disagree that Our Lord died for our sins was resurrected three days later and that they too may believe and be saved. God bless you dear brother. Keep standing.

        Liked by 1 person

  8. Why I am convinced of a pre-trib rapture:
    The purpose of the book of Revelation was to encourage the churches to endure. As I understand it, is divided in three sections, the Past, the Present and the Future.

    Jesus Christ, instructs John :

    “Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this”
    Revelation 1:19 ESV

    The things that John had seen (Past)….What did John see? He saw Jesus Christ in all His Glory and Majesty. And so the first section has been completed. Rev 1:9-20.

    Those things that are (Present)…This deals with the messages to the seven churches, seven literal churches at the time of John but they are relevant to all churches in all places in all ages. They are Jesus’ message to us today in the twenty-first century wherever we may be living in the world. This is  second section “The Church Age”, we are presently living in the church age. 1-3:22

    Those things that are take place after these things(Future) 4:1-22:21.

    After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
    Revelation 4:1 ESV

    Jesus has just dictated letters to the churches, where He said that He knew what was going on! He knew their struggles, their strengths, their weaknesses, their vulnerability and strongly encouraged them to perseverance in the faith. “This is not all there is, be encouraged”. (The church was being severely persecuted at the time John received the visions. The Church is still being severly persecuted today) this struggle, this suffering, there is something ‘after’ all this. Now Jesus is going to show John a different perspective. A heavenly perspective!
    When we read chaper four, something amazing happens, John is called up to Heaven. Up to this point, John was in Patmos. Now he is before God’s Throne.(remarkably overwhelming). From here to the end of the book is all future, “The things that must take place after this”, after what?, John who is our brother in the church age ( the present) is symbolically lifted out of this earth and into Heaven, now Jesus is showing him, the things that must take place in the future.( The Church is not mentioned again). Begining in Revelation 4, we see the horrors of the tribulation, but we don’t see any reference to the Church. As I see it the rapture is a rescue, Jesus rescues all born again believers, His Body the Church from the time of judgment and the tribulation is a judgement.

    Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.
    Luke 24:45‭, ‬47‭-‬48 ESV

    The news of Christ’s death on the cross and resurrection needs to be proclaimed. It was the disciples job to share it then and now it’s ours!

    So, if the church is destined to go through the tribulation, why does God appoint the two witnesses and seals 144000 redeemed from Israel to be His witnesses during this horrible time? And later we see an angel proclaiming the gospel, Rev 14/6. Why is the church not proclaiming the gospel? Where is the Church ?
    Reading the tribulation passages, Scripture alerts us to the fact that Israel in the focus during this time, not the Body of Christ.
    Thomas Ice puts it this way:
    God’s purpose for the tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) revolves around His plan for Israel and does not include a earthly presence for the church. Why? Because God’s plan for Israel is unfinished at this point in history. When the role of the church is completed she will be taken as a completed body to heaven in an instant-at the rapture. This will clear the way for a restoration and resumption of progress toward the completion of our Lord’s plans for His elect nation-Israel.

    The Bible teaches that the tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration and conversion (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10). As already mentioned, the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age, but she is never mentioned as participating in Israel’s time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God.

    Gerald Stanton explains:
    The Tribulation does not deal with the Church at all, but with the purification of Israel. It is not the “time of the Church’s trouble,” but the “time of Jacob’s trouble.” The emphasis of the Tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deut. 4: 30; Jer. 30: 7; Ezek. 20: 37; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Matt. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17, etc.).
    It concerns “Daniel’s people,” the coming of “false Messiah,” the preaching of the “gospel of the kingdom,” flight on the “sabbath,” the temple and the “holy place,” the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve “tribes of the children of Israel,” the “son of Moses,” “signs” in the heavens, the “covenant” with the Beast, the “sanctuary,” the “sacrifice and the oblation” of the temple ritual. These all speak of Israel and clearly demonstrate that the Tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom. The many Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10, etc.).Not one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church.

    Since God’s purpose for the tribulation is to restore Israel (Jer. 30:3, 10) and judge the Gentiles (Jer. 30:11), it is clear that this purpose does not include the church. This is one of the reasons why she will be taken to heaven before this time. The church’s hope is a heavenly one, not participation in the culmination and restoration of God’s plan for His earthly people-Israel.

    God will ultimately be victorious! Jesus wins! We are on the winning side! Let’s rejoice and give God the glory for such a wonderful salvation!
    Maranatha! Hallelujah !

    Liked by 3 people

      1. BibleGuy a brother in the Lord I respect and trust explains the purpose of the tribulation like this :

        “Remember that there must be a purpose for anyone being
        in the tribulation.

        Israel has a stated purpose.

        Jeremiah 30:7. Daniel 9:20, 24-27

        There is no stated purpose for the born again believers in
        Christ being in the tribulation. Our spirits are as perfect
        as the Spirit of Father/Son/Holy Spirit.

        The tribulation will draw unsaved Jews to accept Chris as
        their Messiah/Lord and Savior, at which time their spirits
        will also become as pure as that of Father/Son/Holy Spirit.

        John 3:3 was stated to Jews. Paul repeats the new birth
        in 2 Cor 5:17. It is only by the new birth that anyone will
        be enter the Kingdom of God (millennium); which is why
        anyone will be present during the tribulation”

        Liked by 3 people

      2. Hi brother, he means now . We have been born again the Holy Spirit lives in our spirit . So our spirits have been made perfect!
        Does it make sense BibleGuy?

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      3. Dear BibleGuy, thank you for the question. I don’t imagine the Holy Spirit is going to wake us up. I don’t know. Maybe is more like “instantly changed and instantly taken”. Whichever way, it will be unimaginably exciting!!

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      4. I agree and what is even more fun to think about is Left Behind left the clothes in a pile, but the Lalonde brothers did a set and all the clothes were neatly folded, I think they were thinking on the empty tomb, but that would be totally cool too, we are taken out any everywhere perfectly folded clothes laying around.

        Like

      5. Crissy and Bibleguy,

        It’s probably best to go here for answers:

        1 Thessalonians 4:16 NKJV — For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
        17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

        1 Corinthians 15
        Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed…

        Liked by 4 people

      6. Bibleguy, I would ask you to consider what Jesus states here to the church at Thyatira “Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great Tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
        Revelation 2:20,22-23 KJV
        My question is how can all the churches know if they are not still present at this time of great Tribulation. Notice they are not referred to here as one church observing from heaven or the bride. They are all observing the punishment of this one group of offenders from this one church.

        Liked by 1 person

    1. Hi, Chrissy, Just to try to answer your question with the way I have seen this question answered is that, If Christians do go through the Tribulation, either half or all, that Mid-Tribbers say the rapture occurs when the 144,000 receive God’s mark on their forehead and up to that point they are proclaiming the gospel but that’s why the 144,000 receive God’s mark, because when the Wrath of God begins they are protected. Now Post-Tribbers, say as far as I am aware, say that many of us are killed during this time and that we are still proclaiming but it just doesn’t say that because it is obvious that we will be proclaiming all around the world but God is setting these up to proclaim to the Jewish people specifically. That is why the two witnesses are at the wailing wall. If you have at least 14 million Jewish people that are in Israel at the time of the Tribulation beginning and only 144,000 then that 97.2 Jewish people to witness to per person. I don’t know, I am just giving answers that I have heard given myself.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Grace and Peace to all of you .
        Thank you Maria for your wise words. Is good to share thoughts . As I see it this is not about changing anyone’s mind. Just sharing our thoughts as we understand Scripture. The thing to remember is that one day, hopefully soon, we shall all be with the Lord
        We can put forth what we learned and why we see things the way we do and pray the Lord to guide each and everyone of us. If we don’t agree that’s fine. I do not agree with many things preached in the church I currently attend. If we only love those that agree with our point of view (referring to our spiritual family of born again believers). we failed to love as Jesus commanded.

        Liked by 3 people

      1. Hi Maria, hope you are keeping well. Thank you for the link. I went over the post several times, including the comments, so that I can better understand your position and how you arrived to your conclusion regarding the end times prophecies in the Bible.
        If you don’t mind and Christian permits, I would like to share some thoughts perhaps in a future post and share the link here for anyone that may be interested.
        Blessings sister.❤️❤️

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Crissy, thank you – that would be fine but there are problems with that. My reply to you is over at my blog, and Christian has closed comments here though we can still reply to eachother – I don’t know how long comment threads can be though. The first is my fault since I took the discussion elsewhere. Jerry and Sherry have commented there.

        What do you think?

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      3. Crissy, come on over and leave a long rebuttal. Please remember one thing, I quoted Philip Mauro about 70 A.D. but this does not mean that I agree with all he says.

        It may take a few days to respond, okay? Lord willing it won’t be longer. I’m reading in Jerry’s book and want to comment to him.

        Like

      4. Hi, Maria, I had no idea that it close comments. Thanks to your comment to Crissy, I was able to correct this. I am so thankful to the Lord that it appears this conversation has continued and has been carried on to other blogs. God bless you Maria. If not for you and Bibleguy this post wouldn’t have even been found by many. God bless you dear sister who thought a topic was important enough to share with others!

        Liked by 3 people

    2. Crissy I’m going to speak to a few of your issues that you raised. There were many.
      This is the first I’d like to address. “And later we see an angel proclaiming the gospel, Rev 14/6. Why is the church not proclaiming the gospel? Where is the Church ?” This is your concern.
      First I want you to consider that the church is not mentioned in any scene either in heaven or on earth in Rev chapter 4-18. Yet we are to believe it to be complete in heaven as a bride. There are several heavenly scenes, but no church by name. No bride by name. The 24 elders are never mentioned as being the church, and it is not until after the Tribulation in chapter 19 that we hear that the bride has made herself ready. I will speak more to the 24 elders at the end.
      So again you state: “And later we see an angel proclaiming the gospel, Rev 14/6. Why is the church not proclaiming the gospel? Where is the Church?” Jesus had told us that it was our job to proclaim the gospel and that He would be with us until the end of the age to do that. So we need to know what age He is speaking of. Is it the church age? In my book I have a chapter on this, but to summarize: if you look up church and age in your search engine in any translation, you will not find a church age. If you do please let me know. What you find is references by both Jesus and Paul to this age and either the age to come or that age or the next age. Jesus in fact tells the Jews who come to trick Him with the question on the resurrection, by asking whose wife is she in the resurrection, who has been the wife of the seven deceased brothers. Jesus answers:
      Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
      Luke 20:34-36 NASB
      Three things are important here concerning this age and the next. . 1. There is marriage only in this age, 2. There is resurrection to get to the next age, and 3. The O. T. Jews, who asked this question are told here by Jesus that in the next age they will be sons of God if they make the resurrection.
      They will then not be any different than you and I in the age following resurrection. Why is that? — because we are one new man in Christ, and there is no other way to be made worthy of resurrection than to be in Christ. He makes us worthy. We according to Ephesians 2 are to share in their promises and covenants. Including the land covenant during the millennium. I’ll prove this as we continue.
      Now if you consider that in the Tribulation there will be marriage and giving in marriage, so what age is the Tribulation a part of? We know which — Because Jesus in Matt 24 warns that pregnant women will flee the housetops during great trouble in those days.
      But you asked “why the church is not seen presenting the gospel in Tribulation?”
      Revelation contains much symbolism, I think we can agree on that point. We have animals representing nations, a dragon representing Satan. We have the books written to the seven churches addressed to — the angel — of each church. In order to understand the angel taking the gospel to all nations in revelation 14, you need to first understand that — today — we are a divided church. I hope no one would disagree on that point. We don’t agree doctrinally on much. Jesus prayed in His John 17 prayer for unity among His followers. That has not yet happened. It will. He also prayed — Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Neither has that prayer been answered, but it will. Peter said this:
      For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
      1 Peter 4:17 KJV
      Sherry had stated in one of her comments earlier that once she sees the Antichrist then she will become mid-Trib, and once she sees something else she would become post-Trib. Well The Tribulation will actually do this for the church — it will bring unity to the body. I believe that this unity is represented in the Angel who is seen in Rev 14 taking the gospel to the world. A unified church that Jesus prayed for whom He will be with until the end of this age wherein there is marriage and giving in marriage unlike the age to come when we will all be sons of God in the resurrection.
      Another quote from your comment: “The Bible teaches that the tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration and conversion (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10). As already mentioned, the church will experience tribulation in general during — this present age —, but she is never mentioned as participating in Israel’s time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God.
      I already spoke to some evidence of why the church is present in the angel who spreads the gospel and Jesus gave us this responsibility in this age. Other evidence of the church present in the Tribulation is found in those who overcome Satan during the Tribulation by the word of their testimony and the blood of the Lamb. Who else could that be if not the church? Now I want to speak to the day of the Lord and the wrath of God. Later I will work in the 24 elders.
      Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. Joel 3:14-16 KJV
      Earlier in chapter 2 of Joel he states something similar concerning the day of the Lord, but there he makes clear that the darkness of the sun moon and stars is announcing the day of the Lord. Also listen to Malachi:
      Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: Malachi 4:5 KJV Elijah is one of the two witnesses — this believed even by dispensationalists. So Tribulation again is seen preceding the day of the Lord.
      If you compare all this to Matt 24 there is a sequence that occurs before the Lord returns. In both scriptures the tribulation occurs first. In Joel it is shown to be the valley of decision, followed by the sun moon and stars not shining then the return of the Lord on His Day of the Lord. Jesus speaks of this same darkening of sun moon and stars after the Tribulation and before he returns in Matt 24. Joel speaks of the same darkening event before the day of the Lord. Paul speaks of the darkening a bit differently as he sees it as the Lord coming as a thief in the night (night is darkness no sun moon or stars shining). All three see His coming in total darkness over the face of the earth. Jesus again confirms this timing in Revelation listen:
      And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Revelation 16:12-15 KJV
      So Jesus says His coming as a thief is associated with Armageddon. And Armageddon is where Jesus begins the trampling of the wine press of wrath.
      Now if you compare this with what Paul says concerning the day of the Lord, then you will realize that this is after the world and Israel find themselves in the valley of decision. For Israel it is the time of Jacobs trouble. For the world it is the Tribulation. For the church it is the time to complete the spread of the gospel, and to stand for Christ amid persecution, making Israel jealous.
      Now if we consider that God’s Wrath is poured out quickly at the end of the Tribulation. The wrath can last no more than 5 Days because once the waters are turned to blood there will be no more water to drink. Man cannot live long without water. The sealing of God’s bond-servants is for their protection from all that is poured out at God’s direction. We are called the bond-servants in Revelation. The book is written to us bond servants. Back to wrath. Some of the bowls are judgment before His “Orge” wrath (see my article on God’s wrath) in an effort to elicit repentance. Even with two of the early “thumps” bowls of wrath God is still seeking man’s repentance. It is not until Armageddon (the sixth bowl) that God is no longer seeking man’s repentance.
      The next section I want to address is where you bring up Gerald Stanton who says Tribulation is about “the preaching of the “gospel of the kingdom,” This is a purely Dispensational teaching.
      So, to believe that this is a different gospel there must be a second gospel for Israel’s salvation. So my question is how does believing in the kingdom alone bring salvation? There is normally a two gospel teaching within a Dispensational scheme for the future, because if Israel is saved by being in Christ then her Tribulation dead must be raised before there can be any Rapture. Paul address’s this issue by first telling us that the dead in Christ will rise first and then we who are alive and remain will be Raptured or at least that’s what we call it. Paul also says that if even an angel comes preaching a different gospel he is to be accursed. And think of this — if Israel also must be in Christ in order to re-enter the Olive tree; they must believe. So, then any of them who die during Tribulation also must rise before the Rapture. So Jesus tells the Jews that they will if worthy attain to the resurrection and be sons of God, and Paul says: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 KJV
      So tell me how there are two gospels. Paul even makes us aware that the Kingdom is pertinent to the gospel. And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more (Acts 20:25 KJV). Paul in more than one place in scripture is said to be preaching about the kingdom. The kingdom is not another gospel.
      Another quote from your Aug 11 comment. “Since God’s purpose for the tribulation is to restore Israel (Jer. 30:3, 10) and judge the Gentiles (Jer. 30:11), it is clear that this purpose does not include the church. This is one of the reasons why she will be taken to heaven before this time. The church’s hope is a heavenly one, not participation in the culmination and restoration of God’s plan for His earthly people-Israel.”
      I have already answered this. Peter says judgment begins with the household of God and we are that household. We are the holy nation and the royal priesthood that God set out to establish through Israel. We are one with her saints. We were added to her Olive tree. Yes branches were cut off for their unbelief, but not all Israel was cut off because not all were in unbelief. Her Remnant was not cut off, but we were added with her Remnant in the Olive tree. We are made part of her New Covenant. Jesus said this is my blood of the new covenant. We are now in what she is to be returned to — the Olive tree. She is even seen in Isa. 54 as being remarried to her redeemer. Christ is her redeemer. She was widowed in chapter 53 by her husbands death. He is her redeemer and savior and ours; then again in chapter 54 she is promised to be Wed once again to Him. She is one with us in the bride. He is the bridegroom who began calling His bride from the Jews:
      He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. John 3:29 KJV
      If you read the passage surrounding this occurrence you will see that Jesus was bridegroom to a Jewish bride even before His resurrection.
      Now let’s go back and consider the 24 elders in Revelation chapter 4. Why were there 24 Representing the church? Because in the New Jerusalem Jesus has prepared for both Jews and Gentiles as His bride.
      And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife. And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
      Revelation 21:2,9,12,14 KJV
      We are one. Both Jews and Gentiles are in the bride — Israel and the church. So let’s review what you stated:
      The church’s hope is a heavenly one, not participation in the culmination and restoration of God’s plan for His earthly people-Israel.”
      I suggest to you that we do participate just as does Israel in the millennial kingdom, Ruling with Christ. David’s eternal hope is just as ours for he said : and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever. This does not mean he will not see the millennial kingdom first.
      And according to Ephesians 2 we will inherit the very same kingdom promises as will Israel in the millennial kingdom. So why were there 24 Elders? — because Israel’s founding fathers from the 12 tribes of Abraham were there when John was called up. And the 12 Apostles other than John who were dead when John was called up for his heavenly visions were there also when John was called up in Revelation 4:1. They were all martyred. Yet only one of them knew who it was who was worthy to open the seals. Why? If this is the Raptured church of our present day all of those present would know that Jesus the Lamb is worthy to open these seals. John Himself even now knows, but he did not know then. He knew because he was shown while in the Spirit. So yes this encounter is part of the church or bride who awaits the rest of the redeemed, and no this is not the Raptured church. John is recording what he sees of those dead who were present with the Lord when he was called up around the year 90 AD. I could share so much more with you but to do so took me 370 pages in the book. But I’m open to any questions and challenges.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Hi Jerry,

        Hope you are doing well.

        I would like to ask you some questions is that’s ok.😊

        1) Is there a difference between the Church, and the Nation of Israel?
        2) How many resurrections are spoken of in the Bible, after Jesus resurrected ?
        3) Do you see clearly defined “periods” or “ages” when God administered the human race differently?
        4) Where will you place 2 Corith 5/10?
        5) Eph 3: 5/10, how do you understand what Paul is saying?
        Blessings

        Liked by 2 people

      2. Crissy, for ease of understanding, I have listed your questions and my answers to them.
        1) Is there a difference between the Church, and the Nation of Israel? The answer is not a simple yes or no. Paul states that the true Jew is not one who is outwardly circumcised but one who has had his/her heart circumcised. When the church was first mentioned by Jesus it was the word Ekklesia (Greek Word) familiar to the Jews because of its frequent usage in the Old Testament. It was used more times in the Old than in the new. Peters answer to Jesus which generated Jesus use of the word church was “Thou art the Christ the Son of God”. He was recognized here as the Jewish Messiah. The Church itself was at first a sect of Jews called the way. Paul persecuted the sect because it was deemed a threat to Judaism’s truth. He was not persecuting all false religion, but just this sect. So, why are we now called by Paul one new man? Did Jesus come to create this one new man? Listen:
        16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. John 10:16 NASB. Also there is another passage that needs considering:
        But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.” Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. John 11:49-52 NASB
        So, my answer would be that it is God’s purpose to have a nation Israel with a people who are one new man made of both Jews and Gentiles. The Olive tree represents God’s people from every nation, who owe their existence to Jesus —the root—.

        2) How many resurrections are spoken of in the Bible, after Jesus resurrected ? The resurrection is spoken of many times, but there are two. The first resurrection of God’s people all of whom must be in Christ, and the resurrection to the second death.
        For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
        1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NASB
        There are also miraculous resurrections eg the Jews who came out of the graves when Jesus was crucified.

        3) Do you see clearly defined “periods” or “ages” when God administered the human race differently?
        Yes actually this is where the term dispensation came from. It is used only four or five times in the New Testament meaning God’s administration of events or time. Jesus spoke of not putting new wine into old wine skins. Jesus coming was a different administration of the law. It was not done away with, but it was being written on each man’s heart. You must be born again. This is the gospel brought to both Jew and Gentile — one new man. It was preached to those in paradise before they in paradise were led captive into the Fathers presence. This is actually the start of His Church — His people which will in the millennium occupy His nation Israel. Read Chapter 49 of Isa. And ask yourself as Zion does in that conversation — who bore me these when I was barren? In fact there are so many coming into the land that the borders must be increased.
        4) Where will you place 2 Corith 5/10?
        This is the best answer from scripture. 12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 NASB. I can only say that it will be at His Coming for all men, it will occur therefore on the day of the Lord (the 1000 year day). Probably in conjunction with the marriage feast – you may want to read my post on the ancient Jewish wedding feast.
        For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
        2 Corinthians 5:10 NASB
        5) Eph 3: 5/10, how do you understand what Paul is saying?
        I’m going to answer this with the one verse. Some of it is addressed in the last answer.
        to be specific, that the Gentiles are — fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise — in Christ Jesus through the gospel, Ephesians 3:6 NASB
        All souls in paradise from past history even before Israel were gathered into the Ekklesia, Eph.4; Peter says: For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. 1 Peter 4:6 NASB
        Many scholars believe this happened when Jesus was in paradise with the thief, and then He led captivity captive Eph. 4.
        Jesus Himself is the first resurrection. No one else was resurrected to immortality at that time. But the captive souls are with the Lord where we will go should we die before the Lord returns. Paradise and the tree of life are now moved to heaven.
        I hope I have been clear in my answers, but you would need to be the judge of that. Please let me know should you have other questions.
        Let me say one further thing. The church did not replace the nation Israel. It is incorporated into Israel the nation. All of God’s people will reside in Israel and eventually in the New Jerusalem.

        And Blessings to you, and to all who will read this.

        Liked by 1 person

  9. Greetings to all in the name of our Saviour Jesus Christ. Very interesting conversation taking place here. Thank you Christian for encouraging conversation in a peaceful God gloryfing manner. Thank you Maria for the link. I have no read all the comments in depth yet but I will. I love it when we, brothers and sisters in Christ, can discuss Bible teachings without stoning one anoher. We can all learn from each other even if only love and mutual respect always honouring the One who died for us, all to His glory !! including our conversations. After all fellowship as Christians is not based upon the timing of the Rapture, but upon the finished work of
    Jesus on the cross. Some have accused those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture as trying to avoid
    all trouble and persecution. On the contrary, the Church always has been and always will be persecuted as long as we are in the world, but I believe this is not the same as the wrath of God poured out during the
    Tribulation. I believe the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation because from my understanding, more Scriptures support a pre-tribulation Rapture over the Amillennial, Post-millennial, and Post-tribulation theories. I used to be Mid-Trib, but after many years of study and learning the difference between natural Israel and the Church I changed my view to Pre-trib. I can share some of my learnings if anyone is interested.
    Ultimately, we can’t be dogmatic about something that hasn’t occurred yet. Whenever the Lord Jesus Christ comes back is His will, which should be sufficient for whatever position we hold.
    We all want to see Jesus and be in His presence!
    Blessings to all!

    Liked by 4 people

    1. Hi Chrissy, Welcome to the conversation. We will be happy to hear your views. I will not be here for a couple of days. I will get caught up Monday. God bless you all. Thanks Maria for bringing so many to this conversation. If not for you we wouldn’t be having this. God Bless you sister.

      Liked by 4 people

  10. Christian, you don’t have to keep this video up. I will repeat what I said here, without the link. I didn’t think the link would actually upload the video. I’m sorry!!!

    Chris and Jerry and everyone here, Michael Snyder is not Mid-Trib. He appeared on the Jim Bakker Show YouTube Channel. The title of the video is: Michael Snyder: ‘The Case for a Post-Tribulation Rapture’

    Jim Bakker is now selling prepackaged meals for survivors. This is listed under the video, “Visit our store to check out our survival & preparedness products.” I’m not in favor of inviting Michael Snyder to participate.

    Liked by 2 people

  11. Chris and Jerry and everyone here, Michael Snyder is not Mid-Trib. He appeared on the Jim Bakker Show YouTube Channel. The title of the video is: Michael Snyder: ‘The Case for a Post-Tribulation Rapture’

    Jim Bakker is now selling prepackaged meals for survivors. This is listed under the video, “Visit our store to check out our survival & preparedness products.” I’m not in favor of inviting Michael Snyder to participate.

    Liked by 1 person

      1. That’s ok. I wouldn’t have been able to find it if you didn’t. I have always thought Michael was a Mid-Triber, how very interesting that he is not. Thank you, Maria, you have brought people, ideas, and such a wonderful light on this subject. You truly are a great sister in Christ

        Liked by 1 person

  12. The doctrine is to be a comforting one 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
    The Tribulation is the outpouring of the wrath of the Lamb and God has not appointed us to wrath 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11
    The Rapture before the Tribulation is illustrated in Genesis 19, where we see angels delivering Lot and his family before the destruction of Sodom. 2 Peter 2:9 The word translated “temptations” is the same word translated “tribulation.”
    Rapture before the Tribulation is illustrated in Enoch, who was taken to heaven prior to the Flood Genesis 5:24 Noah is not a picture of the church, but of Israel, who will indeed go through the Tribulation and will at last come to Jesus as a result.
    Rapture before the Tribulation is illustrated in Daniel 3. When Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego refused to worship Nebuchadnezzar, they were thrown into a fiery furnace. But were was their friend Daniel? Either he did indeed bow to Nebuchadnezzar-which is completely contrary to the rest of the book-or his omission is in itself a picture of the Rapture. Bible scholars believe that, very likely, he was away on official business as an emissary. All we know with certainty, however, is that he was taken out of the scene.
    1. Jesus told us that we would be raptured before the Tribulation Luke 21:36 How are we worthy? One way: We are worthy because of what Jesus did for us on the Cross of Calvary.
    2. Pre-Tribulation makes sense historically and scripturally. In accordance with Jewish custom when a man came of age to marry, he would add a room on to his father”s house for himself and his bride. When the addition was complete, and when the father gave the go-ahead, a trumpet would sound, and the bridegroom would meet his bride. Following the wedding ceremony, the bridegroom would take his bride to his father”s house, where they would be tucked away for seven days in the completed “bridal suite.” At the end of the seven days, the bridegroom would come out with his bride and introduce her to the community. That’s exactly what’s going to happen with us. Jesus, our Bridegroom, is preparing a place for us in Heaven, His Father”s House. John 14:2 At the appointed time known only by the Father, a trumpet will sound and Jesus will meet us, His bride, in the air to escort us up to the “Bridal Suite.” He has prepared for us. We will remain with Him in heaven for seven years before we are presented to the world, where we will rule and reign with Him.
    3. Pre-Tribulation Rapture follows the outline of the Book of Revelation. If you don’t embrace a Pre-Tribulation view, your understanding of Revelation becomes as twisted as a pretzel because you’re got to put chapters 4 and 5 after 11, if you hold to a Mid-Tribulation Stance; after chapter 19 if you take a Post-Tribulation point of view. Only a Pre-Tribulation placement of the Rapture allows for a consistent flow of the Book of Revelation.
    4. Pre-Tribulation Rapture allows for the conditional aspect of the Tribulation. Revelation 2:22 If the Rapture won’t occur until after the Tribulation, what would be the reason for this warning of Jesus? “Well, didn’t Jesus say in this world we would have Tribulation?” you ask. Yes but the crushing the believer goes through in the world is from Satan. The Tribulation of chapters 6-19, on the other hand, is from God as he pours out His wrath on a Christ-rejecting world. Folks, God will not allow anyone to get hit from both sides. If we experience tribulation in the world because of our faith, we will not experience Tribulation of those who have none.
    5. Pre-Tribulation Rapture allows for the unknown time of the Lord”s return. According to Daniel’s prophecy, three and a half biblical years (a Biblical year being three hundred and sixty days) from the day Antichrist enters the temple and demands worship midway through the Tribulation, the Lord will return. Consequently, if believers were on earth during the Tribulation, they would be able to predict the exact time of the Second Coming-three and a half biblical years, or forty-two months, or one thousand two hundred sixty days after the Antichrist enters the temple. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 Matthew 24:36 The problem is, 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and Matthew 24:36 make it clear that no one knows the hour of His coming. Therefore, it follows that believers must be absent at this time.
    6. The Tribulation is unnecessary for the church. Referred to as the time of Jacob”s trouble, the Tribulation targets Israel, for through it she will be awakened and at last see Jesus as the Messiah! Deuteronomy 4:29-30 The promises made to Abraham and to the Jewish people have not been forgotten. God will work with Israel in the days of the Tribulation. He will make Himself known to them-and they shall indeed be saved.
    7. Pre-Tribulation Rapture squares with the prophecy of Daniel. At the end of Daniel 9, Daniel was given the timetable for all of Jewish history in units of heptads, or weeks. It is clear from this all-important passage of Scripture that the sixty-nine weeks of Daniel prefer to the time between the commandment to rebuild the temple, was given in 445 B.C. By Artaxerxes and the coming of the Messiah, fulfilled perfectly on Palm Sunday when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the back of a donkey. But Daniel was told “Seventy weeks are determined upon Israel.” To what does the seventieth week of Daniel refer to? To the Tribulation. You see the seventy weeks of Daniel refer to Israel. The church was not present for the first sixty-nine weeks. And seventieth week doesn’t begin until after the church is raptured. In other words, if the church was not present in the first sixty-nine weeks, why would she be present in the last week? She won’t. She’ll be in heaven.
    8. A Pre-Tribulation viewpoint makes one seek first the kingdom. (Matthew 24:45-46) Who is the one who will have authority and purpose in eternity? He who is watching for Jesus” coming. But this is impossible for those who believe the Tribulation precedes the Rapture because they must first watch for Antchrist, then the rebuilding of the temple, and finally Abomination of Desolation when Antichrist demands to be worshiped as God.

    Watch!
    Be Ready!
    Live for His coming!

    Your viewpoint concerning the Rapture very definitely affects how you live your life this side of eternity. If you do not believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, you cannot look for Jesus Christ because, according to your eschatological viewpoint, Antchrist must appear first.

    Philippians 3:20

    1 John 3:3

    Be Watching and Be Ready

    Liked by 3 people

    1. Even Sherry agrees through discussion with Maria, that even holding Pre-Tribulation Rapture that the Antichrist will appear before the rapture. That’s why this kind of discussion is so very important.

      Liked by 3 people

      1. Your viewpoint concerning the Rapture very definitely affects how you live your life this side of eternity. If you do not believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, you cannot look for Jesus Christ because, according to your eschatological viewpoint, Antchrist must appear first.

        Like

    2. May I ask not only you but maybe Sherry also, about Lot and His family. I have heard this many times and just out of curiosity, when the angels went to visit lot and all the people stayed camped around all night till the angels smote them with blindness, only after that were they brought out, couldn’t that be like part of the Tribulation then the rapture like the escape?

      Liked by 3 people

      1. I’ve not heard this about Lot being a type of the pre-trib rapture but it does make sense to me. Lot, like Christians do now, lived grieving over the immorality of the people surrounding him. He did not give in and become like them and God called him righteous. Like Lot, Christians are sitting at the gate as watchmen and warning of consequences to come for the immoral behavior.

        Liked by 3 people

    1. Well welcome back. We have missed you today. I have tried a couple of times to get to your site, but I couldn’t find you. Hey, Brother, please forgive me if I offended you. I didn’t mean to. I enjoy conversation with you. I am very clumsy on learning computer navigation. I do good to find my own site(blog) sometimes. Glad to have you join the conversation.

      Liked by 3 people

      1. Thank you. I hope not. I try not to offend brothers and sisters. Thanks for the forgiveness. So since we all just jumped right into this. How are you. Glad to have back in the conversation.

        Liked by 2 people

      2. I am wonderful. Jerry has given me food for thought. We are some how tossing the idea of trying to get a debate between pre, mid and post Tribulation view points. Man, that Jerry is really a smart cookie.

        Liked by 2 people

      3. First he has suggested that I contact Michael Snyder for the Mid-trib and I think he meant to start it out on here first. If it grows big enough then possibly talk debate. I just think it is a wonderful idea.

        Liked by 1 person

      4. I have heard about Michael Snyder but don’t agree with the Mid Trib position. Interesting question how many of us have loved ones who died and are with Jesus that we long to see at eight death when He decides to take us home or at the Rapture.

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  13. Hi Sherry I am Pre Trib as well Revelation 3:10 shows us We Believers are kept from the hour the Tribulation and from Revelation 4 to 19 the Church isn’t mentioned because we are in heaven the the Judgement Seat of Christ.

    Liked by 3 people

  14. Well, my simple answer is this: I am a Pre-trib Rapturist because we are told no one will know the day nor the hour. Granted, this day will not come upon those who are His as a thief for we will be watching. And there is laid up a crown for those who love His appearing, meaning we are waiting and watching for Him as a Bride watches for the anytime appearing of her Bridegroom coming for her. With mid-and post- trib views then we may know the day. We can begin the countdown of days from the moment of the covenant being confirmed or from when the Antichrist breaks it and sits in the Temple declaring that he is God. Not only that, but it is the time of Jacob’s Trouble, a time for the wrath of God on the unbelieving Jews. Their timeclock of prophesy picks up then. The Church will not be put to suffering. Jesus took God’s wrath on Him for us. It was enough. Jesus is not a wife abuser. If the Church goes through this time then we would be the declarers of the Gospel, not the angel and the two witnesses nor the 144,000.

    Also, as the Bride of Christ it will happen to us in like manner as the ancient custom of Jewish weddings in Jesus’ day on earth. Study this and many scriptures of what Jesus said will make sense as well as why the pre-trib rapture is true. I will let Bibleguy317 explain it. I’m pretty much in line with his views.

    Liked by 3 people

  15. So, I did some reading last night, M.R. Dehaan’s book Daniel–The Prophet published in 1947 pg 259-260 says “So we notice that two thins are determined. First, in verse 24, seventy weeks are determined that until the end of this dispensation wars and desolation, and not a utopian millennium, will be ushered in. The picture, then, becomes perfectly plain. Sixty-nine weeks haven been fulfilled from the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem up until the crucifixion of the lord Jesus Christ; Israel, as it were is sidetracked for the present and then God will resume His national dealings in the last week still unfulfilled, when the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ is raptured.” then Pg 260 Here we have the Lord Jesus Christ referring to this same incident in the middle of the week, and then follow the instruction of the Lord for them to flee into the mountains and to be ready for the time of the Great Tribulation. Now if this abomination is set up in the middle of the week, it means that three and one-half years precede its setting up, and three and one-half years will follow it setting up. In Revelation 11, concerning the two witnesses which shall testify during the last half of the Tribulation Period, we are told that Jerusalem is given unto the Gentiles and the Holy City shall be trodden under foot “forty and two months,” that is a half a week, three and one-half years. the in the third verse we read:
    And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days [three and one-half years].
    In the twelfth chapter of Revelation we are told that Israel will be protected by the Lord during this time for a time, times and half a time, again three and one-half years, the last half of the Tribulation Period.” Now M.R. Dehaan is pre-trib but in his book he says that the second half of the Tribulation period is known as the Great Tribulation which is the wrath of God. Which it seems some bible teachers are saying all seven years are the wrath of God. This is what I mean by reasoning together I believe that the Lord has made a very distinct difference in the first half and the second half. We cannot change the word to suit our purposes. They want the wrath of God to be the whole seven years so as to suit their purposes of pre-trib verses. This is sowing discord among the brethren. We can’t do that. I am still not saying that I am not pre-trib or that I am one of the others. I just want people to know where some of these questions come from.
    If one brother is teaching three and one-half years of Great Tribulation and one brother is teaching that the whole seven years of Great Tribulation then that brings confusion and God is NOT the author of Confusion.
    God bless all who have joined this conversation and are so willing to bare their hearts on this.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I see no problem with God’s wrath during all of the Tribulation’s 7 years with the severest judgements in the last 3 1/2 years, aka, the Great Tribulation. Those who go into the Tribulation will be given over to believe lies as truth and it just gets worse and worse from there. At the same time of God’s wrath in the last 3 1/2 years He will be delivering the believing Jews who know that the Antichrist is not God. No suiting Scriptures to fit our belief of a pre-trib rapture.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. Ok, so this is something I could be ok with. I like the way you stated that. This brother that I heard did not state it that way. His statement almost made me feel dumb that I believe like M.R. Dehaan there is a distinct difference in the first half and the second half.

        Liked by 1 person

    2. ” They want the wrath of God to be the whole seven years so as to suit their purposes of pre-trib verses. This is sowing discord among the brethren.”

      I think this is a strawman argument, or one that manipulates a person to drop their pre-trib belief because they (mid-tribbers) say it must be one or the other, the wrath of God during all of the 7 years OR just the last 3 1/2 years.

      Its both.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. No, I actually based my comments on two Pre-Trib brothers, the difference between the two, is one is from the 1940’s and one just recently. The one from the 1940’s says there is a difference in the first half of the Tribulation and the Wrath of God during the second half. Now I hear a brother in todays culture that says all 7 years is the Wrath of God. Now I believe both of these men to be saved. I believe both of these men are God Fearing men, so don’t misunderstand my intent with the statement. It just seemed that something changed in 75 or so years. I will apologize if my comments sounded harsh. When I wrote it, they didn’t, upon rereading it, they do. So, I will make sure everyone understands, I was not trying to be mean, I have a thirst for knowledge, I also want people to be able to come to this page long after we are done talking on this issue and still be able to get their questions answered. I have tried to pick my memory on every question I have read, for that sole purpose. I am very similar to you actually, if the rapture happens before the covenant then I will know it was pre-trib, if I see the covenant signed and no rapture, I will go to mid-trib, and if I see the mark of the beast being given and another year or two passes then I know post-trib, yet every single day of my life I will continue to pray, “Even so come, Lord Jesus”

        Liked by 1 person

  16. Christian, you wrote,

    “Maria, I think you have been very hurt and you may not have shifted on your belief had three of the bible teachers came together and had a debate.”

    It would be much much better to be convinced of the truth by a solid Bible debate but this didn’t happen. I’m sorry I disobeyed the Lord and read and believed Whisenant, however I believe that the Lord worked this to my good so that I believe doctrine that is more Biblical.

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    1. Isn’t our God an amazing God. He does work it for our good. He uses those things to grow us Spiritually, to learn to lean more on Him, but most of all to show us that He walks through this with us and that He is not a man that He should lie “For I will never leave you nor forsake you”

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      1. You are so correct. Whether in death or the rapture I will praise Him and His name. I love what you have brought to this conversation. Each person has brought such a light to this that I feel so blessed. Each person that has entered this conversation thus far has brought something in such a way that I think glorifies our Saviour. Thank you for the people you have invited. You truly are a person that will bless me.

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  17. Im going to interject something here to just let everyone know, one of my concerns with the pre trib timing. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (1 Thessalonians 4:16
    According to pre-Trib theology we are to understand what is happening in this verse to be the exact same event as what is stated in the following verse. But we will see that It is not Listen:
    After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “ Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”
    Revelation 4:1 NASB
    In Paul’s description of what will happen with the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians, the Lord comes down from heaven and all the dead are resurrected first and then the Rapture.
    In Revelation 4:1 no one comes down from heaven, and only John is called up into heaven to see 24 elders which we are told is the church. This event is most probably an event just like Paul’s when he tells us that he had been called up into what he called the third heaven. He had a heaven experience, but that experience he did not share. Pre-Trib scholars want us to accept John as a type of the Church caught up in the Rapture, but without the conditions surrounding the Rapture. No Lord coming down, and no resurrection preceding.
    For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
    The pre-Trib version is typed with John representing the Rapture, but with no resurrection.
    The second issue surrounding this Revelation 4:1 argument is the absence of the word church on earth hereafter until? What I would say to that is that neither is the word church mentioned in heaven in these chapters. If John’s being caught up into heaven is representative of the church, would it not be true that he would have known that only Jesus the Lamb at that time after He is Raptured had the power to open the seven seals? In fact only one of these 24 elders “representing the church” seems to have that knowledge, and even he allows heaven and earth to be turned upside down looking for anyone to do this before he tells John. So I to was pre-Trib until I was left with so many unanswered questions that I no longer am. Thanks for bringing this up. I love your purpose and the wisdom in doing this in just such a way. Again Thanks.

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    1. Good Morning, Jerry, No thank you for your comments. I am so thankful that so many are willing to join this conversation and not be mean. I am concerned my brother in Christ Bibleguy, ,may have thought I was being mean to him. I wasn’t intending to come off that way. Like you stated you had so many questions that you had to change positions. That’s what I think a lot of people feel. I had a hard time closing my mind last night, I kept asking the Lord if I was wrong. I just wanted for people to feel welcome to make comments and Bibleguy is such a staunch Pre-triber that I thought he could just answer a few questions and get a conversation started. It was probably in my wording of the article that he didn’t realize the questions. Each pre-trib preacher that I hear quote the same verses. They do not vary much from that, which only continue to quote the same. I wish I wasn’t just a regular person sometimes. I would like to see a real debate between a good pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib preacher. The kind of debate where each answers the same questions and questions asked by the audience not a single person. Could you imagine the T.V. ratings that would receive? I love all that you added to this conversation. I must say it was not I who thought of this. The Lord just used me as a vessel. Can you imagine how it greaves His heart to have His children fighting and being mean and hurtful to one another. God Bless you my dear Brother in Christ. I am going to look deeper at some of the things brought up. I do have a question for you that I am currently looking into. What do you make of the verse in Daniel 12:10-12 10″Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days”. I have heard many mid-tribers reference this verse and would like to know what you think.

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      1. I think I’m going to love this conversation, I do appreciate your approach. I know that God must be displeased with us when we argue. I also know that wisdom is gained with age, and we begin to look through God to the scriptures for answers that we don’t seem to find elsewhere. I don’t meN to imply that I have them all yet. But to your question. This concept presented by Daniel or rather to Daniel in my mind takes me to what I have written about in the past. The unity that obviously you desire, and that God has also put on my heart I think is possibly beginning to take root, although we have far to go, but Jesus prayed for it, and the God head obviously will see that we do come together. My personal belief is that the Tribulation is for that purpose. We will be purified. In the book I write, that once we realize that we have actually gone past the beginning of tribulation the 70 th week of Daniel, then people will be much more open to listening to what the word is saying. Unity then is possible. I believe that what Daniel says here is evidence that there will come a purging not only for Israel preparing her for her entrance into the Olive Tree, but a cooperative purging as well for us who are already in that tree. The bride has made herself ready. But as I said I’m still open to learning.

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      2. We are learning, Jerry, we won’t know everything until we are in the presence of our Lord. Then He will make all things known to us. I hope we all will be open to learning.

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      3. “Each pre-trib preacher that I hear quote the same verses. They do not vary much from that, which only continue to quote the same.”

        May I ask why this is made out to be such a bad thing? What are you expecting from pre-tribbers? Should they not quote these verses? And don’t the mid/post- tribbers have their oft cited Scriptures? Just curious…

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      4. Yes, but what I was referring to was that they are not answering the mid-trib and post-trib verses that are brought up. It is ok to point out the same verses but they seem to ignore the ones that others bring up. That’s all I am saying. I do a lot of my reading in the comments sections after people do the Pre-Trib stuff. I haven’t seen a lot on like word press as far as questions, more along the lines of the more famous people, but it seems there are always questions that people have about verses and no one seems to be answering. That truly is the reason why I felt like we needed a page such as this. Maybe so people like you and Bibleguy could answer some of those questions for the Pre-Tribber, or Jerry and Maria could answer those for the Post-Tribber. This really is so others could post their views but also answer some really difficult questions that others out there may have. I know that no matter what view I hold I have respect for you, Chrissy, Bibleguy, Jerry, and Maria. Each may hold a different view of the Rapture, but our faith is in the same Lord and Saviour. Honestly, I believe when the Rapture occurs nobody will be saying see I told you so. We are going to be so happy to see our resurrected Lord that we will only saying Thank you, Jesus that you were willing to save even me, the sinner that I was.

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    2. Yes, but when John was called up into heaven he saw the Church there because of the pre-trib Rapture. After this, he saw the judgements of God. Many may say that John going up into heaven is symbolic of the Rapture itself but if it were, like all symbolism, it would be explained. However, we must also remember that Jesus is God and is omnipresent. And, was John brought to the third heaven, as Paul, where it would be unlawful to speak about the things he saw? I like your explanation, Jerry, but it doesn’t disuade me from my pre-trib view. We may hit snags in our belief but we must think things out carefully before going on to another view. I will be pre-trib until the Antichrist confirms the covenant for 7 years. Then I will move on to being mid-trib until I see that Man of Lawlessness break that covenant and declare himself to be God. Then, if not raptured, I will look for it at the end of the Tribulation. I may not fully understand the pre-trib save through the study of the ancient Jewish weddings of Jesus’ day on earth but nothing will cause me to change my view except it to be a safer belief than the pre-trib.

      Also, I want to say to Maria’s comment that I don’t believe the whole of Revelation is symbolic, but that it is written from a spiritual realm view. The symbolism in it is always explained.

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      1. Yes, Sherry, this is exactly what I am looking for. We can answer each other’s statements and comments in such a very nice way. Not in a you are wrong and I am right context. Thank you and thanks for Maria who helped to bring you in. See I have heard several preachers on their platform have said “the other day someone came up to me and asked me ‘what if you are wrong about the rapture'” to which the man of God chosen to preach the word of god replied on stage “I am not wrong”. Another preacher whom I have on cd who I believe is saved but made the statement “I am going to show why the pre-trib rapture is right and people who believe in the mid-trib and post-trib are wrong” Now for me these statements just scream pride and how many people did they offend. I just want a place where everyone no matter your view can come and discuss with others without being called a heretic or worse. Through our loving responses to one another maybe unbelievers will read these comments and possibly one of our testimonies and get saved. I just can’t imagine how many people are turned away from our faith the true faith because we are not taming our tongue. James3:8 says “But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.”
        So thank you, may God Bless you

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      2. As Maria can attest, and perhaps Jerry, I am one of those who believe that mid-trib and post-trib are wrong and that Scriptures, when fleshed out, will prove it. I don’t know if that is pride to defend the truth as God has revealed in His Word. I do know this: that when the pre-trib happens the ones going up are going to be believers in Christ and His atoning work no matter their rapture views. Sometimes I will tell a mid/post-tribber that it will all be explained on our way up before the Tribulation occurs.

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      3. I agree, Sherry, no it’s not pride when defend the Word. Hatefulness is, when people say “I am not wrong” unless it is a salvation issue. We have to defend Jesus is the only way even if standing at death. Something that is not a salvation issue such as the Tribulation Rapture, we can defend our view but like you said so nicely if such and such happens and the rapture hasn’t happened then I will follow the next one until finally it happens. We know the rapture to be factual, it will happen, and all who put their faith on the One the comes back will be included. That I believe is what shows you have a humbleness in your spirit.

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      4. Maria, When praying about this it came to my mind the event of all those coming against Elisha and his servant, and how God showed them His army of angels surrounding them. No one could see them but those two whom God allowed a glimpse in the spiritual realm. Also, Ezekiel telling us of his spiritual realm experience. Now, since John was called to the heavenly realm I believe he was shown what was going to be happening from that perspective.

        Jerry, we also need to be discerning so as not to be tossed about by every wind of doctrine. Once the truth is revealed then the teachable spirit should be for the strengthening of that truth we’ve been made sure of by the Holy Spirit. One of the things that kept tripping me up was that we would first see the Antichrist revealed before the rapture. How can that be? With Maria’s help, though she may not have known it at the time, I finally realized that we do see the Antichrist revealed first in the person of the pope. One of these days, he will be filled with satan and will be the most deceitful and cunning of all popes. In Paul’s day, no such man existed but there were many antichrists. Now the AC has potential among the popes and we see it. Throughout most of Church history there has always been a man in place for satan to fill making the rapture of the Church imminent for every minute of it. I could have said that it must mean a mid/post-trib rapture but instead I researched the matter and found this to line up with scriptures without discounting the pre-trib rapture view.

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      5. On that front, Sherry, I don’t think which view you take on the Rapture is being tossed about by every wind of doctrine. Even someone who changes their view on that point. I think we are all of the same doctrine because we all believe that Jesus, born of a virgin, came to live on this earth as a man, fully God and fully man, died on the cross for everyone’s sin that whoever shall believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ should be saved. That is my doctrine, my theology and my faith. The Rapture is just part of what the Lord gave us to seek Him on. Honestly our whole bible could have just contained John 3:16-18. That is how salvation comes. He gave us a lot more then what it takes to be saved that we would seek Him, know Him, and search His word. Agree? Disagree?

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      6. Sherry, you wrote,

        “Maria, When praying about this it came to my mind the event of all those coming against Elisha and his servant, and how God showed them His army of angels surrounding them. No one could see them but those two whom God allowed a glimpse in the spiritual realm. Also, Ezekiel telling us of his spiritual realm experience. Now, since John was called to the heavenly realm I believe he was shown what was going to be happening from that perspective.”

        Yes, I agree! The Lord showed John what was going to happen in a heavenly vision too. About Ezekiel’s vision, both John and Ezekiel saw believers sealed to protect them. This isn’t a strict comparison but something worth noticing.

        You wrote to Jerry,

        “. . . In Paul’s day, no such man existed but there were many antichrists. Now the AC has potential among the popes and we see it. Throughout most of Church history there has always been a man in place for satan to fill making the rapture of the Church imminent for every minute of it. I could have said that it must mean a mid/post-trib rapture but instead I researched the matter and found this to line up with scriptures without discounting the pre-trib rapture view.”

        I understand what you’re saying here about imminence, Sherry.

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      7. Christian, what I meant was this, that we can make our minds go back and forth on the different rapture views. But if you do not exercise discernment while trying to be teachable on other views you can be caught by every wind of doctrine. Jerry brought up why he dropped the pre-trib view citing Scriptures that, for me, does not alter the pre-trib view I have though he is right about John not being symbolic of the Church’s rapture. This is where things symbolic must say that they are by telling the explanation of it. If John is symbolic the scriptures would explain it. If no explanation then anything written in Scriptures could be considered symbolic with our own interpretation determining the meaning. No discernment leaves us wide open to believing every wind of doctrine.

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      8. Sherry, for some reason I lost contact with this post. I just was looking at Christians site and discovered that a lot happened that I didn’t pick up on. You stated here that my objections did not affect you understanding. Of course what I stated is only what led me into the study of the Raptures timing. There are so many things that accumulate from scripture toward my current understanding that I wrote a 360 page book on the subject. So obviously I could not satisfy anyone’s questions with just that one post that you slide to. I’m going to continue reading here to see what else comes up. But let me ask you a question — why do the 24 elders represent the church?

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      9. This site you sent states “The elders cannot represent tribulation saints for the same reason—not all had yet been converted at the time of John’s vision.” I totally agree with his statements an most of the support for this being the church, but what many scholars miss is the fact that Israel is represented in the bride or New Jerusalem and they are in Christ as He led them and paradise into God’s presence and we go there to be with them when we die. There is much more to this, but I have prepared a response to Crissy that I will post soon that covers all of this and I don’t want to duplicate it here. You may want to read it.

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      10. Sherry, let me know if you got my comment to Crissy. I want you to know that I agree with you that we are not to be tossed to and fro over every wind of doctrine, but I firmly believe that we need to know what we believe and why, and in order to do that we need to know the objections to our WHYS, as well as to our beliefs. I for one walked the isle of the church (Baptist) at age 9. For 20 years I believed everything I was told, but then I had an experience that drive me into the word and I found little support for what I was told. I have definite beliefs now that I feel I can support and answer challenges, so I love this format. I am interested in knowing if what I say is challenging especially to other dispensationalists which I had been. It’s not about being right but about finding truth.

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      11. I agree! The best way to know if you are correct in belief with what lines up best with Scriptures is to look at the objections to what you believe. I find that people who object to say, Calvinism, do it from an Arminian perspective instead of looking at Calvinism from a Calvinist perspective. I’ve researched the different end times and millennial scenarios and the reason I am a pre-mil dispy is because I see it as the best fit to the scriptures, history and the present times , and logic. I’m not one to take anyone’s word for it. I did that for eight years and found I wasn’t even close to the truth and was even doing the demonic stuff! No, I prayed for the Lord to reveal to me all of the lies I was believing as truth and He is still revealing it. But, once I know the truth I no longer research to see if I’m off track. I do look at beliefs I’ve never heard of but, so far, I haven’t changed anything on my end times beliefs except to say that the Antichrist will be the pope. Oh, and I really don’t think that there is going to be a bunch of technology involved. I believe the things, like the locusts, are really going to be as John saw them. These things are of the supernatural realm. Let God be true and every man a liar. God bless you, Brother!

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      12. Sherry, thanks for commenting. I certainly believe that the premillennial position is the correct one. Concerning the pope, I see him as the false prophet or the religious arm not the political leader. I believe a political leader will arise to the occasion and become Antichrist. Politicians are better liars than the Pope. Ha
        As for me and Calvinism. I was raised in a form of it. Predestination was a scary thing to me, because it came to mean to me that even if I wanted to be saved I couldn’t if God had not chosen me. I certainly knew that I needed to be saved that was not the issue. I’m certainly not pure Armenian in my understanding of scripture. But there is one sin that is unforgivable, and that is to deny Christ. That can be done before one is saved, as did all but a Remnant Of the Jews. Or it can be done post following Christ as in a divorce. Why else would Jesus the Messiah speak of names being blotted out of the book of life:
        5 He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5
        I too am a big fan of scripture when formulating Doctrine. I believe Paul when he informed Timothy:
        Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
        1 Timothy 4:16
        God bless you as you study as well sister.

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  18. Hi, fellow Christian! If we do what you ask and give our view of what we believe the Bible teaches, and respect the views of others, this could be really helpful. I hope people do! (I’ve read the comments above, just so you know.)

    Despite your invitation and to be helpful here, I’m going to comment with my view of how we study and come to conclusions. My conclusions could be wrong but I believe the principles of how to study are right.

    I believe that it is best to get our doctrine about the End Times from the Gospels and Epistles, and that the Book of Revelation is a symbolic vision of history from the time of the Apostle John until the new heavens and new earth. For example, it is hard to take doctrine from a statement made to the church at Philadelphia or to John himself, and better to take doctrine from Paul’s Epistles to the Corinthians and the Thessalonians, etc.  Revelation 3:10 had to mean something to the Christians of that day first and then to us. And Revelation 4:1 was a command to John personally to come up and be shown the future. (I see you mentioned Rev. 4:1 in a comment.)

    Rev. 3:10 – Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

    Rev. 4:1 – After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

    But 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 5, 2 Thessalonians, for example, give us doctrine, teaching, about our going to be with the Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 15

    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

    55 “O Death, where is your sting?
    O Hades, where is your victory?”

    1 Thessalonians 5

    1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.   11 Therefore  comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

    2 Thessalonians 1

    3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,  5  which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.  9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

    I hope this comment can be helpful in getting a handle on how to study different types of Biblical books.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Hi, Maria, I am so thankful you commented. I too hope many people will come to this platform. I do not want to shout at anyone or anyone shouting at me. I feel that we are getting away from love and I do feel so much love in your post. I think you are very warm person.
      I agree we should use the Gospels and Epistles for our end time Doctrine. So are you pre-trib or mid-trib? 1 Thessalonians 2:1-4 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. It says and that man of sin be revealed.
      I keep seeing these questions from people on other sites, but people just seem to say ignore that verse and look at this one. I feel like the Holy Spirit wants us to talk gently to one another. Help each other. If our bickering doesn’t end how are we to witness outside the church. My spirit is truly grieved at the way people “in the faith” appear to treat each other. Thank you, Maria, May God Bless you.

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      1. May God bless you for trying to help us see that our attitude matters as much as sound teaching! Often, discussions about the Rapture are either one-sided or are full of tension and, as you have seen, strife which is ungodly and unloving. And thank you for encouraging me too! Actually I decided not to say what my belief is because it might not help your conversation but disrupt it. It’s more complicated than saying I’m Post-Tribulation. Here’s our history:

        My husband and I were saved in a church plant by teachers who taught the Dispensational view of both history and the End of the Age. We believed in a Pre-Tribulational Rapture and were joyful and excited. We were foolish, though, and abandoned the Lord’s teaching that we cannot know the day and hour, and we bought into the Rapture occurring in 1988 on the Feast of Trumpets. We were very disappointed and discouraged. Later on,we followed the teaching of Marv Rosenthal called Pre-Wrath and read his book and subscribed to his magazine. Now we’re coming to the conclusion that the Rapture comes after the Tribulation but before the wrath. This is because we’ve come to see that Daniel 9:24-27 – the Seventy Weeks – were already fulfilled and we are living in a centuries-long Tribulation that will culminate in salvation for the Jewish people, the Rapture at the Second Coming, a rapid pouring out of the vials of wrath, then the new heavens and earth in which righteous will dwell, where we will dwell with the Lord forever.

        You have a heart for the Lord and like you I’m waiting for Him, the Beloved, the Lord Jesus Christ!

        Like

      2. Actually, My Dear Sister in Christ. That’s what I want. Unfortunately, I wasn’t saved in 1988. That teaching came from a Dear Brother, Hal Lindsey and if I understand correctly, he was miss quoted. He still preaches the end times. I have that book and one day I will get time to read it. I listen to him whenever I get time to. He is pre-trib but once again doesn’t really answer questions. Maria, I think you have been very hurt and you may not have shifted on your belief had three of the bible teachers came together and had a debate. Let every person see what the believe why they believe it and answer questions of what the other person believes. I am not saying I am pre-trib. I am trying to hold my answer so that it doesn’t turn people away, since I am the author of the piece. What we believe about the rapture is not a salvation issue. I almost like Michael Yousef’s “I am of the Pan belief= I am going to wait to see how it all Pans out” I just love that, but that gets under people skin and they have to call him a heretic. Well he’s not and reaches out to great many people to get saved. So, no your comment didn’t hurt my cause, it may reach someone who feels they were betrayed like you. We are all one body. Right now, I am just trying to be a hand to help those who do feel scorned and shut away. May the Holy Spirit lead us all to truth. God bless you Maria and your Husband.

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      3. Christian, just to be clear about what book we read that misled us, it was a book by Edgar Whisenant: 88 reasons Why The Rapture Will Be in 1988: The Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hash-Ana).

        Jerry Parks has a blog called AND THEN MESSIAH WILL COME. Jerry has studied the Rapture and other prophetic topics for 40 years. He believes in a Post-Tribulation Rapture and a literal Milennium. You might want to invite him to participate. Here is a link to his blogpost, Why Is Christ’s Imminent Return Not Yet Imminent?

        https://raptureonline.blog/2018/08/07/why-is-christs-imminent-return-not-yet-imminent/

        Another strong Pre-Tribulation Rapture believer is Sherry of X Mass H8ters blog. Invite her too?

        https://xmassh8trsblog.wordpress.com/2018/06/23/the-coming-of-christ-for-his-church/

        As you continue with this project, invite Christians to participate. You could even host an online “convention”!

        Like

      4. Ah, I was unaware of that book. I have heard the title (not realizing it was the actual title) but the other day I heard a preacher reference Hal Lindsey’s book the Late Great Planet Earth and how he referenced 40 years from 1948. In his defense this preacher was saying that he never actually set a date in the book. Thank you for setting me straight on that my dear Sister. I feel like I was bearing a little false witness, please forgive me. I just know a lot of preachers seem to bring that up these days without mentioning any names so that people know they are not setting dates such as this person seem to do. I wish they would just say we are not going to set any dates and leave it alone. Instead it seems they almost take a joyful pride in that he was wrong. We need to pray for this man, maybe he just got caught up in the moment of what was going on at that time and made a mistake or maybe he is a false prophet, but we should pray that the Lord touches him.
        As for hosting an online “convention” I can barely make comments on other sites much less know how to start something like that. I am about at my limit on my online knowledge. I would love to see someone do that though. God Bless you Sister.

        Liked by 2 people

      5. Yes, that is correct. Proverbs 90:10 says The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
        I think too many of us forget that.

        Liked by 2 people

      6. Ah, Maria, you are so wise. Actually upon reflecting whether or I responded to you correctly, It was as though a light went off in my mind. That should have been my first sentence in the article. Attitude matters as much as sound teaching!! Maybe I will update it later with that being the lead line. Thank you. That is the whole point I guess for me. God bless you!

        Liked by 2 people

  19. Hi brother the Pre Trib Rapture makes sense it’s in the Bible Enoch and Elijah were both Raptured. Check out Revelation 3:10 and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11. Check out the posts I posted about the Rapture if you want to it’s up to you.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Ok makes sense to you, but doesn’t make sense to others. That is what I want this conversation to be about. Actually think about Elijah though. Didn’t he stand against 150 prophets of Baal before he was taken. Didn’t Elijah go to the mountain and pray for God to take him, Yet God fed him through and Angel?

      Liked by 3 people

      1. See that’s what people say. Just study it. They do, but they aren’t getting answers to questions. Can you post some answers to questions mid-tribers have that others aren’t answering?

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Ok, so mid-tribers would say, yeah but the silence in Revelation 7 is actually the rapture. Just because the letters to the churches end and John went in spirit to the throne doesn’t mean that’s the rapture. Only John went up but the silence in heaven after the wrath of the Lamb is announced in ch 6 and after the 144,000 receive the mark of the Lord.

        Liked by 3 people

      3. mmm, yes to an extent. At the same time we have to allow God through His Holy Spirit to point it out to us. We never in this life as far as I know achieve perfection. We have to be willing to recognize when we are being prideful and repent, turn from that sin, and with the leading of the Holy Spirit not commit that sin again, If we do repent again.

        Liked by 3 people

      4. Yes, I tried to view it, but I have to download which I don’t do. I was surfing around his site for written answers, I like Jack Kelley. I read his stuff on Rapture Ready. One of the post he had done, he said don’t even try the last trumpet. At the point I assume a lot of people turned away. That’s what I mean by people not answering. He just shut down peoples questions.

        Liked by 2 people

      5. Ok, so my brother in Christ has posted a video on his site of Billy Crone. I love Billy Crone honestly. I think he is a Godly man. He is one of the teachers in my view that makes other people feel that their questions aren’t being answered about the Tribulation. He is a man that I listen to quite often. I keep hearing teachers say the same verses and ignoring the other verses. Please, folks, bring your opinions here. Discuss with one another why one verse works for you but maybe someone else doesn’t see the same way. Maybe I wrote the article wrong. Maybe I should have done like three segments. One in favor of Pre-Tribulation. Then one in favor of Mid-Tribulation. Then One in favor of Post-Tribulation, but I have seen sites do that and it doesn’t seem to bring people together for a discussion. Why is this so very hard? Are we only believing what we are told to believe? I think this is a wound festering and if we could actually talk about this we could get on with what we are called to do. We are called to go and make disciples. I look for my Saviour’s coming. I pray for it. I listen to every bible teacher I can find that talks about it. I am concerned that we are turning people away from the truth because we can’t speak gently to one another. We can’t answer the questions that are plaguing different members of the church. Unbelievers look and say if they are so mean to one another why would I talk to any of them? If I had a sore that seem to be getting infected I wouldn’t ignore it until gangrene set in, I would tend to it so the infection wouldn’t get worse. That is what I am trying to do here folks. I want to tend this festering wound with antibiotics or Epsom salt to stop the infection, so the body of Christ can be a witness to the lost. We in the Church have almost become a stumbling block to those outside the church and that is a sin. I loved Maria’s post. She is trying to teach people how she actually interprets scripture herself. Maybe that’s what we should try. Let’s try to teach people how we came to believe, why we believe it and here’s what your scripture verse actually means. Folks, this side of heaven we are not going to know what every scripture of passage means. We can study, we can read, we can listen, but no one is going to know all that each passage entails completely. Can’t we at least be nice and join together? I believe the end is so very near that my Grandchildren won’t grow up before the Rapture takes place. So how many souls will be left here to go thru 7 years or 3 1/2 years of pure agonizing pain? Will you be able to tell God on judgement day why you didn’t show yourself as a better witness. One of my favorite writers is Don Twobears on raptureready.com. He recently did an article on Ester. He said choose a character. You will remember it better if you feel you are part of the story. So be the person standing behind you in the grocery store that you don’t have heart enough to witness to, then they go on a Christian site, to learn about Jesus, and see all these mean hateful comments and say well they aren’t any better then unbelievers maybe I’ll try another faith. Like the ones that go door to door, they are so very nice. Yep, they’re nice, but they don’t believe in the Deity of our Lord and Saviour, another soul lost because we couldn’t see past our own selfishness.

        Liked by 1 person

      6. No your blog just took me to a written post. On the website I tried to find the video but it said something about down loading. I don’t do that. So in the search box I typed in “rapture” which took me to an article that I read.

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      7. Bibleguy you are correct the church is not mentioned in Rev. Chapters 4-18. Yet the entire heavenly scene is also absent any mention of the church. And did you know that john who penned the Revelation did not mention the church in three out of his four other writings in the New Testament? But what is interesting to many is the mention of the bride in Rev ch 19, after the Tribulation where it states that the bride has made herself ready. So your answer needs better support.

        Liked by 1 person

      8. I’m not saying that’s not the case. What I am saying is this seems to be a battle of the wills. Until we can reason together why you believe pre-trib and someone else believes mid or post trib then people aren’t going to cross over. This isn’t about what I believe this is trying to reach across the isles.

        Liked by 3 people

      9. That’s nice. So is this another just posting his view or does he actually answer questions. I will be glad to watch and will then try to post any answers he gives to others questions.

        Liked by 2 people

      10. Cool I will be glad to watch. Thanks. Please know brother, I have a great respect for you and am not meaning to hold your feet to the fire. I think you are well learned. if people comment on your site questions you can add them to this one. I just want one place where people can actually understand one another’s reasons for their belief without being mean.

        Liked by 2 people

      11. Remember Joseph after he was taken to Egypt he takes a gentile bride she is a picture of the Church taken at the Pre Trib Rapture he a picture of Israel if I remember that right.

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      12. After he was taken to Egypt he was put into prison twice. See I have seen those arguments as well as people who believe in mid and post trib. So tell me why that is a picture of the Church and how that proves to someone that Joseph being put into prison twice before he takes a gentile bride isn’t representative of the tribulation. This isn’t to make you second guess what you believe. If someone was talking to me that believed in mid-trib I would question the same way. This is not to come against you, this is as though we were in a court of law and I was a lawyer for the plaintiff

        Liked by 3 people

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